Cynical Nation

I blame Ben Affleck.

well, given that the Axis in Europe declared war on us kinda made the Africa expedition necessary. As FDR also did send troops to the Pacific.
Trying to remember if he invaded China or Greenland, too.

"...FDR also did send troops to the Pacific." (Fred)

Bush also rightly sent troops into Afghanistan, whose Taliban government harbored al Qaeda in the wake of 9/11.

The "Bush Doctrine," overwhelmingly approved by Congress, put the U.S. at war with ANY nation that "harbored, sponsored, funded or supported international terrorism" in any way.

That's a very sound policy. Completely unassailable. It should've been enacted much earlier, say back in 1983, in the wake of the Marine Corps barracks bombing in Lebanon.

Iraq, Syria and Iran are three nations that have been at the top of the U.S. State Department's list of State Sponsors of Terrorism...Iraq's refusal to adhere to UN resolution 1441 put it at the front of the line among those rogue states, and again rightly so.

If only there were a way to support the inane (Moore-Sheehan) notion that 9/11/01 was merely a criminal act, and to blame governments for doing what they'd been already doing for decades before that was morally reprehensible, I'd consider it, but that's NOT the case.

Rogue states like Syria, Iraq, Iran and Somalia have long supported international terrorism and have profitted symbiotically from it.

It CAN be argued that we should've invaded Iraq back in 1998 when John Kerry called Clinton's bombing campiagn "not enough," and called for the consideration of a full scale invasion of that country...one that obviously WAS seriously considered, given the fact that Clinton had plans for an invasion of Iraq on his desk in 2000, BUT it CAN'T be argued that we're wrong to have confronted these rogue Arab states now, after America was attacked by terrorists sponsored and supported by the nations on the U.S State Department's list!

"well, given that the Axis in Europe declared war on us kinda made the Africa expedition necessary."

Necessary in what respect? We could have negotiated with the Axis to resolve our differences peaceably. And as we found out in 1945: The Axis had given up on WMD long before the end of the war. Why did we need to shed so much blood? Particularly in military disasters like the Kasserine Pass, in February 1943, where the U.S. army suffered over 6,000 casualties and almost 4,000 captured in six days at the hands of an enemy two-thirds the size of the U.S. force.

as to JMK: Afghanistan, yes. Warranted beyond a doubt. Iraq: hopefully, in the end, it will turn out to have been warranted. What about Saudi Arabia? Why aren't we in Iran? Or Syria? Maybe they shoulda come first? Who knows?

as to withoutfeathers: Whaaaaaaattt?

"as to withoutfeathers: Whaaaaaaattt?"

What was the imminent threat from Germany and Italy in 1941? They had nothing to do with the 12-7 attacks. We could have negotiated a settlement with Hitler and Mussolini and focused our efforts on the country that actually attacked us.

There was no reason to get a quarter of a million young Americans killed in Europe when we could have resolved our differences diplomatically. And 60 years later we still have over 70,000 troops in Germany. When are they coming home?

Let's see, an axis power attacked our Navy and THEN declared war on us, so we declared war back and fought the axis powers.

Then, a bunch of Saudi terrorists attacked a building, so we passed a resolution or whatever and attacked their base in AFGANISTAN.

Then, as Bush, Rove, Cheney, and the Neocon Wingnut Gang had planned LONG BEFORE 9-11, based on lies, we attacked Iraq! Halliburton and Big Oil then COINCIDENTALLY posted RECORD PROFITS and raked in extra billions in taxpayer dollars on top of the gouging and fraudulent billing!

Neocon logic strikes again! Pearl Harbor -- attack axis. 9-11 -- attack Iraq!

This place should be called Naive Nation.
They are the same!

"What about Saudi Arabia? Why aren't we in Iran? Or Syria? Maybe they shoulda come first? Who knows?" (Fred)

Certainly Syria and Iran have been at least as culpable as Iraq in sponsoring international terrorism, but Iraq moved to the front of the line by refusing to abide by UN Resolution 1441, which both Britain and America declared a "Last chance resolution."

The Saudi government has tacitly cooperated with the U.S. for years. We've had Military bases in Saudi Arabia (SA) for decades. They asked for our help in the first Gulf war and twice expelled Osama bin laden from that country, the second time, freezing his assetts held there.

Many individual Saudis support Wahhabism and support terrorism, just as many individual Americans supported the IRA when they committed terrorist atrocities against England, BUT the U.S. government never supported the IRA, so even under the Bush Doctrine, England wouldn't have a viable reason to declare war on America because certain individual citizens supported terrorism, just as America has no reason to declare war against SA, merely because some individual Saudis have supported terrorism.

Saying, "Why not Syria, or Iran," amounts to the defense, "Your Honor, there are plenty of people just as guilty as my client, so why pick on him?"

Iraq had put itself first by its actions post-2001 and pre-2003, to wit, its intransigence in cooperating with weapons inspectors and its refusal to comply with 1441.

"Let's see, an axis power attacked our Navy and THEN declared war on us, so we declared war back and fought the axis powers." (BH)

Well, not quite historically accurate Bailey - "Interestingly, Nazi Germany had signed no treaty that bound Hitler to support Japanese aggression. He was committed to taking on the US only in the event that America initiated hostilities.

Eventually Hitler would reveal the full extent of his reservations about fighting the United States. "This war against America is a tragedy," he told Martin Bormann, the Nazi party secretary. "Germany and the United States should have been able to support each other without undue strain on either of them."

http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Stadium/6712/warONamerica.htm

Germany had no Treaty with Japan that mandated them to defend Imperial Japan. Hitler did America a favor on December 11th, 1941 by declaring war on the U.S. It would've still been hard to convince Americans, who at the time wanted revenge on Japan to initiate war with Germany as well.

"Let's see, an axis power attacked our Navy and THEN declared war on us, so we declared war back and fought the axis powers."

Please describe Germany's participation in 12-7. Every reference I check says that it was the Japanese Imperial Navy that attacked Pearl Harbor.

Interestingly, Soviet Russia did not see a need to declare war on Japan when Germany attacked in 1941. They understood the concept of fighting only those who actually attack your country. So why did FDR feel the need to attack Germany and Italy instead of seeking a diplomatic solution?

I'll tell you why: FDR wanted to control trade between the United States and Europe after the war and he knew that the only way to do that was to invade Europe. World War II was all about economic opportunity for FDR's millionaire cronies -- like Joe Kennedy.

Your "alternate history" fantasies are fascinating, WF.

Unfortunately, history tells us WE did not "choose to attack Germany", GERMANY chose to declare war on US.

There had already been much unpleasantness between our two countries; in spite of George Prescott Bush and Lindbergh, this country developed a thing about Fascist dictators at the time, and didn't cotton to American seamen being attacked and killed by U-Boats as the lend-lease fleet of which Curtis SLiwa's father was a part wended its way back and forth to aid the Allies.

Matter of fact, we had a large crew of Nazi sympathizers, Camp Siegfried, right here in NYC on Long Island.

http://www.newsday.com/community/guide/lihistory/ny-hs729a,0,7169.story?coll=ny-lihistory-navigation

Near the place where Hitler landed a crew of German spies and saboteurs from a submarine. They were captured, and ruined business thenceforth for all the bratwurst houses in NY.

I always thought if they'd landed on the North Shore's GOld Coast, any of the rich land, oil, and trade barons would've welcomed them with open arms.

"Your "alternate history" fantasies are fascinating, WF.

Unfortunately, history tells us WE did not "choose to attack Germany", GERMANY chose to declare war on US."

I have never suggested otherwise. I only pointed out the incontestable fact that we could have resolved our differences with Germany diplomatically, through a negotiated solution. There was no imminent danger from Germany and no requirement of any kind that we respond to Hitler's declaration of war with bloody military attacks. We could have negotiated an end to the war and focused our attention on Japan, the country that actually attacked us on 12-7. 100% of the 12-7 attackers were Japanese.

And remind me: What was the stragic purpose of fire-bombing Dresden at the end of the war?

Negotiate exactly what with Hitler? Anything that would've left him with a square foot of sovereign Nazi territory would've been idiotic.

Sounds like the (un)great Mario Cuomo's suggestion in late 1990 that we negotiate with Iraq while it occupied Kuwait, thus allowing them to remain there.

Dumb ideas.

Any war is right if it enriches all of America. I only fault Bush for not sharing, and making me pay for the war while his friends reap in billions. This is America, dammit. Cut us in.