Cynical Nation

Count me in. I've had mixed feelings about this in the past, and I still do, but I now think the benefits far outweigh the drawbacks.

Fred joked in the post below that Congress would exempt itself, but... why not? Seriously, if currently sitting members could be grandfathered in, it might be the only way it would ever get passed. Granted, it'd be much preferable to throw 'em *all* out, but I doubt they'll ever vote that way, and the worst offenders are geezebags anyway.

I'd be fine with grandfathering the current Congress. Eventually the lifers would be marginalized anyway.

The lifers control everything and always have. How do you get them to vote themselves out of office?

They work for us, remember?

No, JMK says that since we a representative democracy, they represent us as they see fit, they do not work for us.

Straighten him out, JMK!

I think that, generally, thats a good idea. But I also think that in the case of George W. they should have a been a special legislation allowing only 1 term of 6 months (instead of 6 years). We would be so much better now.

Bailey, in order to represent us they first need to be elected by us.

If enough Americans demanded this change, it would happen (eventually).

"No, JMK says that since we a representative democracy, they represent us as they see fit, they do not work for us." (BH)

I SAID that in an election w "don't hire people to govern," as you so lamely put it in another thread.

HIRING = an open process where every candidate is reviewed and considered.

In an election, Party bosses choose who gets to run for various posts and the people get to vote for a very lkimited slate of candidates.

Huuuuuuge difference, but I can't help you get over your problem of "concrete operational thinking."

In fact, I don't even know if people afflicted with concrete operational thinking even CAN get over that.

Again, love the idea. I don't see Congress passing it, but I love it.

Sorry, but this has the same seductive lure of a flat tax with the same chance of ever taking place.

There are a number of good people on both sides of the aisles in congress who would be tossed out were this to happen.

It is base on a cynical idea that all pols become corrupt or complacent with time.

I don't buy that posit.

Sure, there are folks who belong and folks who never should have been elected.

It's our job to vote the latter out.

By installing term limits, you would remove any incentive to vote out an unpopular member and you would see vote % drop even further than it already has as people would let the system do their work.

Oh, you guys are just too funny. Wouldn't you know that as soon as the Republicans lose control, you start talking about term limits. Funny how you didn't want them before.

The solution isn't term limits, but a system of open primaries in which anyone who can gather enough signatures can run and the top 2 candidates get a runoff. Then you would have a mechanism for term limits called "voting" -- and you wouldn't just have party boss-chosen candidates.

Conservatives have ALWAYS wanted and demanded term limits and it was Conservatives who were angry that the GOP didn't deliver them back in 1995.

There was no such outrage from the Democrat MSM.

But I'm giving y'all the straight dope - it ain't just term limits, the primary problem with the modern American political is the abomination caused by the innate and unavoidable conflict of interest inherant in the Lawyer/legislator.

How do we get rid of THAT problem?

Lawyers could & SHOULD be barred from serving in any governmental capacity except the judiciary.

Sure, a lawyer could run for legislative office, so long as that lawyer permanently surrendered their law license.

"Conservatives have ALWAYS wanted and demanded term limits and it was Conservatives who were angry that the GOP didn't deliver them back in 1995."

JMK forget it. Conservatism was defeated badly 2 days ago. Maybe you should try to become liberal now. Trust me it's much cooler than being conservative.

Obviously it has finally sunken in that Jill's wing of the Democratic Party didn't win on Tuesday. :-D

And my term limit idea is not new, just an updated version of what the GOP proposed back in 1994.

It is base on a cynical idea that all pols become corrupt or complacent with time.

Well, this is Cynical Nation. ;-)

I'm willing to sacrific the one or two exceptions to make the system better.

"Conservatism was defeated badly 2 days ago. Maybe you should try to become liberal now." [BW]

Perhaps you know something that the rest of us don't, BW. How'd your prediction on Lamont come out?

Oh, that's right: he lost.

In a solid Blue state, no less.

Gay marriage bans carried in 7 of 8 states.

Exit polls showed voters calling themselves conservative were 32% compared to 21% identifying themselves as liberals.

Blue Dog Dems won for you, my friend -hand-picked by Rahm Emanuel.

Kudos to him and to your party.

You guys deserved the victory.

But don't present it as something it wasn't - a liberal victory.

Ask your new senators from Montana, Pennsylvania and Virginia or your new reps from Indiana, New Hampshire, Florida, North Carolina and Arizona.

The fun will be whether these guys are their own men or if they toe the line with Pelosi and Reid.

Either way you lose as we found out with our own feckless wonders.

The expiration date of running against Bush is past now.

Ball's in your court now and we're all watching.

Good luck.

Believe me, you'll need it.

> Blue Dog Dems won for you, my friend -hand-picked by Rahm Emanuel.

Exactly, Mal, and don't forget Charles Schumer, who achieved the tougher job of winning the Senate, by recruiting moderate, centrist Democrats to win in the heartland. The Kos crowd has shown its actual power to be approximately *zero*, and Schumer will stick around to make sure Kos doesn't forget it.

Repugs had an unopposed shot at term limits for six years. They had absolute power to shrink government, cut spending, and balance the budget.

Continuing to run on these issues will not work. How can you scare voters about "tax and spend" liberals busting the budget after Bush/Shooter/Rubberstamp put us trillions in the hole from a surplus?

How can Repugs campaign on term limits whem Dems will merely point out the obvious: you had your chance.

Yeah, term limits sound good, until YOUR party is in power.

"JMK forget it. Conservatism was defeated badly 2 days ago. Maybe you should try to become liberal now. Trust me it's much cooler than being conservative." (BW)
THAT'S the best possible indicator of "the voice of the American people."

Eight of nine states passed "Marriage Defining" ballot initiatives for those states. Only AZ (shocker) by a slim 51 - 49 failed to pass that measure.

Overall nationwide, voters rejected same-sex Marriage by better than 2 to 1. Perhaps we can put that issue away for good now....please.

Of course Arizonans passed a slew of Conservative, anti-illegal immigration measures as well. They passed an ENGLISH as the official language of AZ initiative (by 74% to 26%!), an initiaitve that denies bail for illegal aliens charged with felonies, denies punitive damages to illegal aliens who win civil suits and bars illegals from any taxpayer funded programs, including child care and adult Education...and AZ has a huge Hispoanic voting population!

YEAH AZ!!!!....except on failing to properly define Marriage...big disappointment there.

Eminent Domain took a huge hit, despite Liberal groups like People for the American Way (PAW), the ACLU and other "good (read BIG) government groups" opposing those initiatives limiting Eminent Domain (E.D.). Remember NOT A SINGLE Conservative Justice voted FOR Kelo and NOT A SINGLE Liberal voted against it!

Well, NINE of eleven states passed those E.D. limiting initiatives - only CA and ID (wtf's wrong with Idaho?) failed to pass them.

And the Michigan Civil Rights Initiative, led by Ward Connerly - a man white Libs seem to love to hate (I just don't get that) - PASSED!!! And it pased BIG - 58% to 42%

The people have spoken resoundingly;

NO OPEN BORDERS! They demand enforcement FIRST and don't seem to approve of any kind of amnesty proposal.

NO ON GAY MARRIAGE. Even the domestic partnership initiative was struck down in CO and it failed in Liberal WI.

NO on race/gender preferences! IF the MCRI can pass in heavily Democratic Michigan, a state with a large black population, it's a pretty safe be that the numbers are even more stark elsewhere.

THAT'S the agenda America's new heartland Dems won on, Blue, so that now, de facto becomes a part of the Democrat's national agenda, or else they risk putting those "New Dems" in severe political jeopardy in their heartland states.

I watched this election closely and I like what I saw from the Dems. They're meeting Conservatives like me half way. We need more, but I'm warming to this "New Democrat" thing. I like the Heath Schuler's (that evangelical Dem who won in NC) and the Conservatives who won in places like KY & IN, even though I'm not pro-life and not very religious...those folks tend to be even more socially Conservative than myself.

The Democrats may be making progress, sadly, I think the "progressives" (ironic name) will be getting in the way of that progress, every step of the way.

We'll see.

Conservatism was defeated badly 2 days ago.

I disagree, Blue Wind. The country did not change, the Democratic Party did.

"The country did not change, the Democratic Party did." (CRB)
(CRB)


Absolutely!

Just look at all those Conservative ballot initiatives - NO on "Gay Marriage," NO on Eminent Domain and in Democratic Michigan, no less, NO on race/gender preferences...and ALL those "New Democrats" from Heath Schuler to the Indiana and Kentucky delegations are apparently down with that agenda.

Tuesday was, for me, a better day than that November in 1980 when Ronald Maximus put an end to the Carter debacle.

That was the day Conservative ("Reagan Democrats") Dems found a home in the GOP, this past Tuesday was a sea change within the Democratic Party, a wink and a nod to welcome home those Conservatives.

It remains to be seen whether this is a growing trend that will result in the improvement of the Democratic Party, or something less reassuring.

Time will tell, but for the first time in a long time - I'm stoked about something Democratic on a national level..."New (Conservative) Democrats."

Who'd a thunk it?!