Cynical Nation

Yes, Barry, you are so right. The problem here is definitely "socialized medicine" because, if our wounded soldiers had to pay out of their own pocket, the facilities will no longer be so over crowded.

Barry's 100% right PE, the problem with socialized medicine/Universal health care is the problem with GOVERNMENT run anything!

Walter Reed and the entire VA system isn't a recent disgrace, it's long been a disgrace because it's run by career bureaucrats who put the worker's best interests before those of the customer....just like at the Post Office, the IRS, etc.

With England's version of "Universal Health Care" more than 50% of their dialysis centers don't accept patients over 65 years of age!

In every form of that program there is rampant rationing and restrictions on doctor's visits, etc.

A U.S. government run health care program could not possibly be even as good as the shoddy level of care delivered by the VA, because the VA system has foundered dealing with a much smaller segment of society.

Gingrich is right, let's outsource to Mastercard and Visa the border security and guest worker IDs and let's outsource to the insurance companies any form of Universal Health care.

Given its track record it's extremely unlikely that the government could possibly be expected to do as good a job as those private sector entities could.

Whether the current problem at Walter Reed was due to outsourcing or whether outsourcing will ultimately improve conditions there, that is another issue.

As long as veterans are guaranteed care, that can be called "socialized medicine" whether that care is performed by public employees or private contractors. If you are against "socialized medicine" for our veterans, then you basically are saying that they should be paying for their own care. An example of a non socialized system would be where the soldier received a lump sum payment for his injury, afterwards he then could choose to pursue medicare care or not.

(correction) .. pursue medical are or not.

.. medical care or not.

Barry,
Socialized medicine works great in England. Of course the private sector is open for whomever wants to pay. Whats wrong with that? I think that England has the best system.

"As long as veterans are guaranteed care, that can be called "socialized medicine" whether that care is performed by public employees or private contractors." (PE)


That's NOT the argument that Barry made and it's not an argument anyone else made either.

The VA system has long been a disaster - long waits, with often less than acceptable results and that's most likely because that's the way ALL governbment programs are run - poorly.

I want a universal, tamper-proof ID, but I don't want the govbernment running it when it's clear that it can be done by companies like Mastercard and Visa much more efficiently (cheaper) and effectively (better).

That said, supporting free health care for veterans (a sa condition of their service) is different than supporting free health care for the 15% of those who aren't currently insured through their employers.

"Socialized medicine works great in England." (BW)


I don't consider a system in which over 50% of the dialysis centers don't accept patients 65 or older "great."

I don't consider severe health care rationing and doctor visit restrictions "great" either, but you might have the bar for "great" set a little lower than I do.

Just a reminder that there actually was no problem at Walter Reed Army Medical Center, the problem was in housing provided for out-patient temporary residence.

Here's an interesting article in Time from just last year: How Veterans' Hospitals Became the Best in Health Care. Ironic, isn't it?

Oh, and, anyone who thinks socialized medicine in the UK is "great" needs to spend more time at the BBC website: I'm leaving the NHS for New Zealand and Jobs protest planned by doctors. Yeah, socialized medicine is "great" in the UK.

Socialized medicine works great in England. England has BOTH socialized medicine and private medicine. The system there works great. For those with no extra money, socialized medicine is just fine (trust me is better than being uninsured like so many Americans are). For those who have money is even better, as they dont need to use the goverment services. It is a brilliant system that works great. Of course JMK may consider the United Kingdom a communist country, and Tony Blair a Stalin-like communist. But the reality is that they have a great system.

"Socialized medicine works great in England. (BW)


Again, if you think that having over 50% of the dialysis centers in England refusing patients age 65 and older is "great," than we simply define "great" differently.

I also don't think health care rationing and restrictions on doctor's visits are all that "great" either.

For the record, I never called England a "communist Country," but YOU did call a system in which over 50% of that nation's dialysis centers refuse to treat patients 65 years and older, "great."

Please, don't ask me to be accountable for things I haven't said, when you aren't even able to defend the things that you've clearly said.

I'm merely wondering what parameters you're using to describe rationed care, restrictions on doctor visits and over 50% of that nation's dialysis centers refusing to treat patients 65 & older as "great," that's all.

That doesn't appear to be a "great" system," when you look at those flaws.

That is an ironic article WF, though it seems that the entire VA system has been flooded over the past couple years with severely wounded veterans.

Still, it's funny Time would print that article just a year ago, when I know so many vets who've complained about the VA System for decades.

And here's another story about the VA:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/features/2005/0501.longman.html

And then there's this article from the same author:
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/archives/individual/2007_03/010860.php

"the problem with socialized medicine/Universal health care is the problem with GOVERNMENT run anything!" - JMK

Don't you work for the government?

That's right JMK, the government runs every fire department. I guess you provide shitty, overpriced firefighting services and should be shut down.

Walter Reed is an example NOT of socialized medicine, but of the government "outsourcing" to the private sector. That's right, the government IS NOT RUNNING Walter Reed! Walter Reed was slated for closure, so they shuffled it off to the private, free market, corporate hands in which JMK places all of his trust!

What did this for-profit group do? They did exactly what JMK claims is good, right, true, and best for all -- they maximized profit!

Patient care cuts into profits. So they just let rats crawl around on the amputees who sat in their own feces and urine.

Sorry JMK, but just like firefighting, some things MUST be coordinated and overseen by the government. For-profit medical care has bought this country to ruin. Only the wealthy, and those like JMK in cushy union jobs, "suckling on the government teat" as he would put it, can afford top-notch care.

I know many Canadians, and I haven't heard a single one express the desire to end their universal health care and adopt the "superior" American system of healthcare for the rich.

Conservatives are so funny. Whenever they govern poorly, they just say.. it's government!.. what did you expect?

I just find it hilariously hypocritical for someone to rail incessantly about the evils of government largesse when they are essentially a career civil servant.

Prior to being a firefighter JMK worked in some capacity for the welfare system as some type of social worker, at least that’s what he’s said in the past. My apologies if I’m misstating it in anyway, that’s how I remember it. Now he’s a firefighter.

Both jobs are indeed suckling on the government teat. Excellent medical plans, pension, guaranteed wage increases, paid overtime, early retirement, etc., etc. You don’t have to produce as you do in the private sector, you just punch the timeclock.

Now I’m not putting down firefighters or saying that what they do is unimportant or easy, but the job itself is full of perks and guarantees that a private sector job doesn’t have. And judging from the number and size of his posts here he seems to have a lot of free time. In fact I bet if we logged the IP address it would take us to some firehouse somewhere, where the taxpayer is funding him.

So in essence as he complains online about the waste in government he is being paid by the government for his time.

Kind of a low blow, zilla.

I have a low opinion of JMK's opinions, but I respect all firefighters. Waiting while on duty is not free time.

"Prior to being a firefighter JMK worked in some capacity for the welfare system as some type of social worker, at least that’s what he’s said in the past. My apologies if I’m misstating it in anyway, that’s how I remember it. Now he’s a firefighter." (GZ)


That's not true GZ.

I did work for UCP of NYS for about five years as a Borough Coordinator, in the Bronx, setting up programming (workshops, recreation, etc) and hiring direct care staff and such for community based handicapped people. UCP of NYS was an independent organization and I never worked as a social worker, or in the welfare system.

I found the work at UCP unfulfilling and left to build decks full time.

I also repossessed cars most nights during that time, because I could often make more money in "one good night" doing that, then working that day job. I did that from about age nineteen to almost thirty years of age.

I also built decks for about eight or nine years...I did that up until about my third or fourth year on the Fire Dept.

The government is a very inefficient deliverer of goods and services and SHOULD probably be barred from the delivery of goods and services, ie. medicine, postal services, etc.

They MUST have a monoploy on things like criminal justice - making laws, enforcing laws and punishing those who break those laws.

I spent nineteen years working in the South Bronx. Actually, I started out in Engine-35 in East Harlem for one year (they ranked about 25th of the 220 NYC Engine Companies in "occupied structural work" in NYC at that time)...from there I transferred to E-43 in the University Heights section of the South Bronx (they were the 8th or 9th busiest Engine over the three years I was there)...I then transfered again to E-92 (which was the busiest Engine in the city while I was there. I worked four years in E-92 and then "crossed the floor" to L-44, which was one of the busiest Ladder companies in the city (#1 for a few of the years I was there).

Like most of the guys in those places I WANTED to be there and deliberately sought those places out. I once believed that was "the difference" between the FDNY and other city agencies where the most desirable spots seem to be the least busy or less troubled areas.

The fact is firefighters are generally no different than most government workers - we don't like building inspections or hydrant inspections (seen as drudgery), but many of them do love to go to fires (its excitement, its physically stimulating and a chance to use hard developped skills that guys are rightfully proud of).

I LOVED the guys I worked with in those places. Those were very aggressive fire companies, filled with pretty aggressive, extremely politically incorrect guys, many whom just weren't "people persons," unlike myself. Seriously I am a "charismatic."

I'd argue that the taxpayer has a right to aggressive fire protection from those guys, but NOT that they be "people persons" too.

There are actually few things that government does well. I think that's proven every day.

The problem with government work is that it tends to be a matter of, "the less you do, the less you want to do."

I was fortunate in that I was able to transfer to a HazMat Unit after nearly two decades in the South Bronx.

It's been a lot less fun and a lot more book work, but with a far more opportunities available outside the Fire Department.

As I've said, I've followed the private fire company phenomenon pretty closely. Most of those paid very well, just as private carters pay salaries in line with Municipal Sanitation workers. Sadly, few of these private concerns have worked out, so far.

Firefighters generally work 24 hour shifts (about two per week)...that's generally standard across the country. Firefighters are also EXEMPT from the 40 hour work week rule, as one of their "perks."

I believe the number is 56, but it could be 52 hours of work per week (I'd have to look that up) before overtime must be paid....and I actually post from home.

PE, no administration governed "worse" than Jimmy Carter - he was so obsessed with "decreasing income disparity" and so wedded to failed Keynesian policies that he presided over the worst economy since the Great Depression...and Supply Side policies have ruled the day ever since.

I saw Mario Cuomo, looking older, but little wiser, the other day, trying to debate Newt Gingrich and extolling keynesian policies and tax hikes!

Those are interesting articles DBK, though every vet I know (in and around NYC) reviles the VA system.

The Bronx VA has been particularly notrious.

Kind of a low blow, zilla.

I have a low opinion of JMK's opinions, but I respect all firefighters. Waiting while on duty is not free time. - PE

I’m not putting them down either PE, I said that what they do isn’t easy. Perhaps I’m just being a bit too blunt. In reality I’m not putting JMK down either, I suspect he’s probably pretty good at what he does. When he talks about his work he sounds as if he knows what he’s talking about.

What I’m really trying to point out is the difference between the world of government work and the private sector.

My neighbor is a cop, he’s been one for 15 years. In 5 more he retires with a full pension and benefits. Now I realize that we need police and we need firefighters, and we need transit workers, bus drivers, conductors, etc. My point is that their compensation is unfair. Why should a guy who worked for the state get a full pension and benefits for life after working 20 years? I don’t get that, yet my tax dollars are paying for it. Some of the larger companies used to provide those kinds of benefits to their workers, but almost all have phased them out.

Those types of programs amount to a somewhat socialist approach if you think about it. Once you retire you no longer produce for the system, yet the system still rewards you. It’s akin to welfare except that the recipients put in their time on the front end.

“That's not true GZ.
I did work for UCP of NYS for about five years as a Borough Coordinator, in the Bronx, setting up programming (workshops, recreation, etc) and hiring direct care staff and such for community based handicapped people. UCP of NYS was an independent organization and I never worked as a social worker, or in the welfare system.
I found the work at UCP unfulfilling and left to build decks full time.” – JMK

Thanks for correcting me, as I said I wasn’t sure if I had it correct.

“The government is a very inefficient deliverer of goods and services and SHOULD probably be barred from the delivery of goods and services, ie. medicine, postal services, etc.
They MUST have a monoploy on things like criminal justice - making laws, enforcing laws and punishing those who break those laws.” – JMK

I don’t disagree – except to a degree with the post office. While I agree they’re grossly inefficient and keep raising their rates, I’m afraid if they weren’t in the game then private carriers would have the opportunity to hike the price of a regular postage stamp. Of course that’s what the post office is doing already so it may be a lost cause.

“There are actually few things that government does well. I think that's proven every day.
The problem with government work is that it tends to be a matter of, "the less you do, the less you want to do."” – JMK

I can’t disagree there either. I’ve never been a government worker, but we’ve all seen the worst case examples such as postal workers, the NJDMV is like limbo - you probably haven’t had the pleasure as a New Yorker, social security is atrocious, even when I was in college I couldn’t escape the state run bureaucracy.

“I believe the number is 56, but it could be 52 hours of work per week (I'd have to look that up) before overtime must be paid....and I actually post from home.” – JMK

I realize that firefighters don’t have it cushy the way an MTA worker does, or a postal clerk. I realize that you guys do put in more time, and you’re not locking the door at 5 if a customer is outside on fire (the way a postal worker will if someone is right outside). I’ve got it pretty good right now, generally no overtime except at year end. In the past I’ve had to put in 12 hour days, and 60 plus hour weeks. I’ve worked all nighters as well, mostly without any special compensation. The perks I’m more concerned with are ones such as pension and the like.

As to your posting from home that’s fine, I mostly suggested the possibility that you did it from work because it had a sort of synergy to it. In reality I post from home and work myself, so I can’t really hold anyone accountable for doing it lest I be a total hypocrite.

"I realize that firefighters don’t have it cushy the way an MTA worker does, or a postal clerk. I realize that you guys do put in more time, and you’re not locking the door at 5 if a customer is outside on fire (the way a postal worker will if someone is right outside). I’ve got it pretty good right now, generally no overtime except at year end. In the past I’ve had to put in 12 hour days, and 60 plus hour weeks. I’ve worked all nighters as well, mostly without any special compensation. The perks I’m more concerned with are ones such as pension and the like." (GZ)


I don't know, who has it "cushier," I really can't say. Some firehouses are pretty nice places between runs, even though we do ALL the improvement work ourselves and on our own dime.

I can only say that the ONLY Civil Service Exam I ever took was for the FDNY.

I never wanted to be a cop and not only because I had a fair share of dealings with them when I was younger.

When I repossessed cars, you often ran the risk of getting nabbed by cops for not having all the paperwork in order.

Back when I started, the street cops weren't above coercing "favors" (maybe like getting you to break into some "suspected" perv's car and making sure a certain video was left "in plain sight," and they weren't above doing "favors" back to those who cooperated.

They also weren't above using "coercive techniques" when questioning folks.

That's a rough job and a thankless one. A good cop "works the system" and maybe bends the rules to make sure that a real bad guy is put away even if it means doing something he'd rather not for someone else along the margins.

There are certainly some firehouses where you go on maybe 5 to 8 runs on average a day (2000 to 2500 per year) and those places may be pretty "cushy," in terms of a lot more rest and a lot less work.

The places I worked mostly did over 4,000. Engine-92 did over 5000 while I was there and 44 Truck did 4600 to 4800 runs as well.

But those are the best places to work in my view, because (1) all the guys there WANT to be there and they want to go to fires, (2) they do go to fires, so they get a fair amount of practice at it and (3) time goes quicker when your busier.

To be fair, the Municipal Pension system is contributed into by the members. Right now, I have something like a $34,000 "pension excess," I've put in more than I had to, as the City has allowed us to put in more money into the system.

With an 8 1/4% rate of return, I couldn't NOT put in the extra money.

Moreover, twice, the Municipal pension fund has bailed out the City of NY (once in 1975 and again during Rudy's tenure in the wake of the Dinkin's fiasco), but yes, a certain amount of tax dollars also go in there, though I'm not sure of the overall percentage, given that the MTA, for instance, apparently didn't contribute until this last contract!

For the last two years I've been in a HazMat Unit in SOC (Special Operations Command) and its been a lot less fun (less kidding around and pranks), little adrenaline (HazMat runs aren't near the adrenaline rush of going to a fire) and a lot more drilling, training and day tours where your out on the rig from 10 am until almost 6 pm.

The "perk" there is more overtime and now possibly specialty pay, but more important to me, as I'm getting older is the possibility of more opportunities outside the Fire Dept. in the safety field.

I'm working on an environmental science degree and looking into a safety engineering degree (I need to find a place nearby that offers that), and right now the 1600 hours of training the FDNY requires for HazMat Specialists still has some marquee value outisde.

There is very little outside value for guys who can break down doors, search apartments blind and vent "smoke-charged" areas (by "taking the glass")....it's a lot more fun, especially when your young, but there's not much outside opportunity in it.

On Universal health Care, I'm not railing against it - since GM, Ford, the airlines, etc got on board, IT'S COMING!

All I'm saying is that you don't have to look much further than the IRS, the DMV, even the Post Office to see how government's going to run a mammoth bureaucracy like that.

I'd prefer it be farmed out to the major inurance companies - like "private prisons," and Walter Reed, it would still be government paid for, just privately managed.

Private prisons and Walter Reed have failed because government hasn't funded them properly.

Oh man, and now he's down on the post office, too. The post office works well. The price of a first class letter is still cheap and I feel even more secure about what I mail than I did when I was growing up. It has gotten faster, too. In years past I would have used Priority mail when I sent my taxes to my accountant the other day. This time I sent it by First Class because it will only take a day to get there rather than two days and it is cheaper.

I agree with whoever said that government works poorly when the Republicans are in charge; they do it deliberately so that they can claim government works poorly and privatize everything.

Here's why the Post Office (USPS) does not "work all that well," in my view, DBK, at FedEx and UPS, when demand slows, employees are laid off and costs are cut, so that the company can deliver the service cheaper and more competitively.

At the Post Office, when demand slows, they cut back on services, delivery schedules, raise the price of stamps and remove mail boxes from the streets, so that there are fewer mail pick-up locations.

In the private sector everything is consumer driven.

In the public sector, everything is employee driven.

One of the biggest scams in NYC is the "student teacher ratio. The UFT naturally wants it as low as possible.

While I have no doubt that a one-to-one ratio would be best, I went to a parochial grammar school in the 1960s with one Nun to 58 students and that one, solitary Nun had no problem keeping those 58 kids in line, with the help of a few pointers, some other corporeal punishment aids. Those Nuns were great!

Same with the Police and Fire Departments, the Unions of both those jobs never pass up an opportunity to lobby for ever larger Departments, even when there's little evidence to show that more cops or firefighters would make things better.

I honestly believe the City COULD do with perhaps half its current number of teachers, and at least a third less cops and firefighters.

"Privatization" has all too often been a sham, to date.

"Private" prisons run on government dollars. That's "private" in name only, defeating the purpose of and making a mockery of "privatization."

Now private sanitation haulers, usually commercial haulers, but in many suburbs, they handle residential accounts as well, they're as efficient as most any Municipal haulers and they pay their employees just as well...and make a profit doing it.

The USPS still has a monopoly on letter carrying and that's why we've seen a 75% increase in first class postage since 1985.

It's actually only increased twice (and for four cents) over the past eight years rising a penny in 2001 and three cents more in 2002, so it can't seriously be argued that THIS current Republican administration "deliberately undermined government efficiency," such as it is.

In fact, package delivery has been greatly enhanced by competition from the private sector. It certainly seems that most businesses tend to deal with either UPS or FedEx.

We have competition in phone service and cable TV and its been great for consumers, we should probably introduce competition to letter carying as well.

It couldn't hurt.

JMK, while you're right that the city may be able to fare better with fewer teachers, it may instead need to be modified with fewer horrible teachers, and more quality teachers.

"...it may instead need to be modified with fewer horrible teachers, and more quality teachers. (That Guy)


I agree and that would most likely be true across the entire Municipal spectrum.

We do need some basic Municipal services - police, the courts, prisons, definitely.

Some other services - probably, is Municipal Sanitation more efficient than private haulers? Would a private run (for profit) transit system be run better than the MTA?

I'd think that those should always be the primary concerns.

In NYC, I couldn't give an opinion on the MTA or sanitation so I'm gonna take your word for those, since the last mass transit I used was in DC and Montreal, but I will say that a teacher hiring process overhaul and dissolution of the teaching unions in any city are needed to benefit our education system.