Let's say you've got a war on terror to fight. How do you prosecute it vigorously, including missile strikes into Pakistan and warrantless eavesdropping on Americans, without being bothered by the ACLU and whiny liberals?
I'm starting to regret my (reluctant) vote for John McCain. It looks like there might have been a true conservative in the race after all, and I wasted my vote on someone else.
Of the two pieces, THIS is, to me, the most; "The Obama administration fell in line with the Bush administration Thursday when it urged a federal judge to set aside a ruling in a closely watched spy case weighing whether a U.S. president may bypass Congress and establish a program of eavesdropping on Americans without warrants." (Wired Mag) and I applaud them for doing that, SO LONG as it's ONLY applied to anti-terror cases and not used against political adversaries (like anti-government groups, the militia movement, the NOI and other controversial groups).
Still, it seems as though the peaceniks were sorely mistaken about the Obama administration.
I'm glad to see that, as well.
There's an irony related to your point, since most leftists are into "team sports-politics", they'll no more dare to criticize THIS same thing they railed about with Bush, just as they didn't dare criticize the equally UN opposed and unprovoked "military aggression in the Balkans"...and since Conservatives won't criticize it either (they applaud such anti-terror policies), that does to benefit Centrist, even Conservative Democrats.
Yeah. Damn that pesky Constitution and Bill of Rights anyway. What a bloody Commie document. If the founding fathers head meant for us to have a Constitution, they would have written one.
The Congress overwhelmingly vted to re-authorize it, WITH the Telecom Company Immunity, which should've (at least according to that Constitution Jill claims to respect) come as an IMPLIED IMMUNITY.
Barack Obama rightfully sided with those in Congress who passed that re-authorization and he rightfully supports now as President.
That good'ol NSA Surveillance program is BOTH necessary and Constitutional, so don't worry your perty little head bout that, young lady.
I wonder if Jill's fondness for the Constitution extends to the Second and Tenth Amendments?
We can debate whether or not NSA surveillance violates the Fourth Amendment, but this post was more about the double standard -- a point that I think Jill helped demonstrate, as I haven't heard a peep of protest on her site about Obama's stance.
"...this post was more about the double standard - a point that I think Jill helped demonstrate, as I haven't heard a peep of protest on her site about Obama's stance." (BNJ)
I agree, although that double standard has been around a very long time.
There wasn't a "peep of protest" over the equally "UN-opposed and unprovoked military intervention" in the Balkans, just as there wasn't any complaints over the Clinton era federal budget cuts, in FACT there was GREAT rejoicing on the Left over the surpluses that those Congressionally imposed budget cuts wrought. In fact, while there was great outrage over G W Bush's non-war related OVERSPENDING by the Left, there have been no such complaints about the Pelosi-Reid driven exceses (last Spring's ill-conceived non-stimulating "stimulus package, the $700 BILLION bank bailouts, the subsequent auto bailouts and the upcoming $800 BILLION "stimulus package).
I didn't get Jill's point about "Constitutionality," GIVEN that not only have the courts consistently upheld the NSA program's legitimacy, but the Pelosi-Reid Congress overwhelmingly re-authorized it and Barack Obama himself supports it!
At this point in time, the Blue Dog (Conservative) Democrats are probably the best friends Conservatism and Capitalism can have, as they're immune from criticism from the Liberal fringe because of that "D" after their names.
I am very glad that the vast majority of the Liberals in American seem more Party-motivated, than ideologically driven.
Yeah, I agree. So far, I have little problem with what the NSA is doing. The second that American citizens are prosecuted for penny-ante criminal offenses based on NSA-obtained data, I will object vociferously. But so far it hasn't happened, and there's no sign it will.
>At this point in time, the Blue Dog (Conservative) Democrats are probably the best friends Conservatism and Capitalism can have...
I'm beginning to think you're right. As a lifelong registered Republican it breaks my heart, but I think you may be right. With GWB, we did what needed to be done, but the fabric of our nation was rent with partisan bickering. With Obama, we'll do what needs to be done and the Dems and civil libertarians will march docilely along, because He That Leadeth Them hath the (D) beside his name.
"The second that American citizens are prosecuted for penny-ante criminal offenses based on NSA-obtained data, I will object vociferously." (BNJ)
Absolutely!
The NSA program MUST remain an anti-international terror program ONLY.
Foreign operatives have NO privacy rights that must be respected and Americans collaborating with foreign operatives (even fronts that fund terror groups) are actively engaging in a treasonous activity.
But it'll almost certainly be left to Conservatives to fight the potential excesses now.
It was Conservatives who sought (and succeeded) to stop a TN Police Dept, when it tried to charge a meth lab group with "making WMDs", as phosgene gas (used in WW I as a chemical warfare agent) is a frquent byproduct of crystal meth production.
Few, if any Liberals were excised over the abuses at Ruby Ridge (1992) and Waco (1993) and fewer care about such government abuses, so long as "the right Americans," in their minds, are targeted.
I'd object to the NSA program being used on the NOI, the KKK or any homegrown kooks UNLESS they were collaborating with jihadists abroad. To date that program ONLY expands the existing FISA laws that have ALLOWED warrantless tracking of calls/emails FROM "suspect foreign portals" INTO the U.S. to now include calls/emails TO "suspect foreign portals" FROM the U.S. I haven't seen any evidence that suggests that the NSA has tracked two-sided calls with both parties INSIDE the U.S.
Which brings up another old double standard - there wasn't "a peep of protest" when the Clinton administration violated the Posse Commitatus Act by using U.S. Army personnel (U.S. Army Arab translators) in the immediate wake of the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995.
It's things like that that leads me to doubt that many (if any) hard-Left people feel close to the same way about this. In fact, I'd be surprised if many of them wouldn't want these kinds of programs used against other Americans.
"There seem to be some tumble weeds being blown along by a blue wind here..." (PJF)
Now that Obama supports the NSA Surveillance program, I'd doubt that BW would have a problem with it PJF.
Either that, or he's still so ecstatic that Gitmo's being closed....by next year...IF we can find a place to send all these guys, that he didn't even notice.
You really won't know who Obama is spying on, because that is classified. Don't worry, I'm sure he won't spy on Republicans and stuff like that. I mean, there's really no way of knowing, but hey, BUSH DID IT FIRST!
Obama needs NO OVERSIGHT. Trust him. No checks and balances, just trust him like you did Bush. No records, paper trails -- sorry, it's all classified. The congress can't look at what he is doing.
Anyway, BUSH DID IT FIRST, and JMK approved. Obama can spy on any American he likes and doesn't have to tell anyone what he is doing. Obama can decide any American is an enemy combatant and have them kidnapped and detained for life.
Hey, don't worry about the potential for abuse. Remember, Bush did it first, and you loved it!
"Obama can spy on any American he likes and doesn't have to tell anyone what he is doing." (Barely Hanging)
There's NO SUCH power.
Bush never allowed the NSA to "spy on Americans," at all.
The FISA laws (since 1979) have allowed WARRANTLESS tracking of calls/e-mails FROM "suspect foreign portals" INTO the U.S.
The Bush administration allowed calls/e-mails FROM the U.S. TO "suspect foreign portals" to be tracked without warrant, as well.
There has been NO (absolutely NONE) tracking of DOMESTIC calls/e-mails...and there won't be.
Besides, Rahma Emanuel's top 10 political enemies includes the likes of Chris Dodd, Barney Frank...that list has seven Liberal Democrats (NO Bluedogs) and three Republicans on it.
Comments
I'm starting to regret my (reluctant) vote for John McCain. It looks like there might have been a true conservative in the race after all, and I wasted my vote on someone else.
Posted by: Without Feathers | January 24, 2009 08:32 AM
I repeat...double standard
Posted by: Rachel | January 24, 2009 11:58 AM
Of the two pieces, THIS is, to me, the most; "The Obama administration fell in line with the Bush administration Thursday when it urged a federal judge to set aside a ruling in a closely watched spy case weighing whether a U.S. president may bypass Congress and establish a program of eavesdropping on Americans without warrants." (Wired Mag) and I applaud them for doing that, SO LONG as it's ONLY applied to anti-terror cases and not used against political adversaries (like anti-government groups, the militia movement, the NOI and other controversial groups).
Still, it seems as though the peaceniks were sorely mistaken about the Obama administration.
I'm glad to see that, as well.
There's an irony related to your point, since most leftists are into "team sports-politics", they'll no more dare to criticize THIS same thing they railed about with Bush, just as they didn't dare criticize the equally UN opposed and unprovoked "military aggression in the Balkans"...and since Conservatives won't criticize it either (they applaud such anti-terror policies), that does to benefit Centrist, even Conservative Democrats.
Posted by: JMK | January 24, 2009 12:45 PM
Yeah. Damn that pesky Constitution and Bill of Rights anyway. What a bloody Commie document. If the founding fathers head meant for us to have a Constitution, they would have written one.
Oh yeah....they did. Shit.
Posted by: Jill | January 25, 2009 01:48 PM
The NSA Surveiilance program IS Constitutional.
The Congress overwhelmingly vted to re-authorize it, WITH the Telecom Company Immunity, which should've (at least according to that Constitution Jill claims to respect) come as an IMPLIED IMMUNITY.
Barack Obama rightfully sided with those in Congress who passed that re-authorization and he rightfully supports now as President.
That good'ol NSA Surveillance program is BOTH necessary and Constitutional, so don't worry your perty little head bout that, young lady.
Posted by: JMK | January 25, 2009 02:02 PM
I wonder if Jill's fondness for the Constitution extends to the Second and Tenth Amendments?
We can debate whether or not NSA surveillance violates the Fourth Amendment, but this post was more about the double standard -- a point that I think Jill helped demonstrate, as I haven't heard a peep of protest on her site about Obama's stance.
Posted by: BNJ | January 25, 2009 03:28 PM
"...this post was more about the double standard - a point that I think Jill helped demonstrate, as I haven't heard a peep of protest on her site about Obama's stance." (BNJ)
I agree, although that double standard has been around a very long time.
There wasn't a "peep of protest" over the equally "UN-opposed and unprovoked military intervention" in the Balkans, just as there wasn't any complaints over the Clinton era federal budget cuts, in FACT there was GREAT rejoicing on the Left over the surpluses that those Congressionally imposed budget cuts wrought. In fact, while there was great outrage over G W Bush's non-war related OVERSPENDING by the Left, there have been no such complaints about the Pelosi-Reid driven exceses (last Spring's ill-conceived non-stimulating "stimulus package, the $700 BILLION bank bailouts, the subsequent auto bailouts and the upcoming $800 BILLION "stimulus package).
I didn't get Jill's point about "Constitutionality," GIVEN that not only have the courts consistently upheld the NSA program's legitimacy, but the Pelosi-Reid Congress overwhelmingly re-authorized it and Barack Obama himself supports it!
At this point in time, the Blue Dog (Conservative) Democrats are probably the best friends Conservatism and Capitalism can have, as they're immune from criticism from the Liberal fringe because of that "D" after their names.
I am very glad that the vast majority of the Liberals in American seem more Party-motivated, than ideologically driven.
Let's hope it remains that way.
Posted by: JMK | January 25, 2009 04:19 PM
Yeah, I agree. So far, I have little problem with what the NSA is doing. The second that American citizens are prosecuted for penny-ante criminal offenses based on NSA-obtained data, I will object vociferously. But so far it hasn't happened, and there's no sign it will.
>At this point in time, the Blue Dog (Conservative) Democrats are probably the best friends Conservatism and Capitalism can have...
I'm beginning to think you're right. As a lifelong registered Republican it breaks my heart, but I think you may be right. With GWB, we did what needed to be done, but the fabric of our nation was rent with partisan bickering. With Obama, we'll do what needs to be done and the Dems and civil libertarians will march docilely along, because He That Leadeth Them hath the (D) beside his name.
Posted by: BNJ | January 25, 2009 05:16 PM
"The second that American citizens are prosecuted for penny-ante criminal offenses based on NSA-obtained data, I will object vociferously." (BNJ)
Absolutely!
The NSA program MUST remain an anti-international terror program ONLY.
Foreign operatives have NO privacy rights that must be respected and Americans collaborating with foreign operatives (even fronts that fund terror groups) are actively engaging in a treasonous activity.
But it'll almost certainly be left to Conservatives to fight the potential excesses now.
It was Conservatives who sought (and succeeded) to stop a TN Police Dept, when it tried to charge a meth lab group with "making WMDs", as phosgene gas (used in WW I as a chemical warfare agent) is a frquent byproduct of crystal meth production.
Few, if any Liberals were excised over the abuses at Ruby Ridge (1992) and Waco (1993) and fewer care about such government abuses, so long as "the right Americans," in their minds, are targeted.
I'd object to the NSA program being used on the NOI, the KKK or any homegrown kooks UNLESS they were collaborating with jihadists abroad. To date that program ONLY expands the existing FISA laws that have ALLOWED warrantless tracking of calls/emails FROM "suspect foreign portals" INTO the U.S. to now include calls/emails TO "suspect foreign portals" FROM the U.S. I haven't seen any evidence that suggests that the NSA has tracked two-sided calls with both parties INSIDE the U.S.
Which brings up another old double standard - there wasn't "a peep of protest" when the Clinton administration violated the Posse Commitatus Act by using U.S. Army personnel (U.S. Army Arab translators) in the immediate wake of the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995.
It's things like that that leads me to doubt that many (if any) hard-Left people feel close to the same way about this. In fact, I'd be surprised if many of them wouldn't want these kinds of programs used against other Americans.
Posted by: JMK | January 25, 2009 07:19 PM
There seem to be some tumble weeds being blown along by a blue wind here...
...crickets chirping...
Posted by: PJF | January 25, 2009 07:40 PM
"There seem to be some tumble weeds being blown along by a blue wind here..." (PJF)
Now that Obama supports the NSA Surveillance program, I'd doubt that BW would have a problem with it PJF.
Either that, or he's still so ecstatic that Gitmo's being closed....by next year...IF we can find a place to send all these guys, that he didn't even notice.
Posted by: JMK | January 26, 2009 09:19 AM
You really won't know who Obama is spying on, because that is classified. Don't worry, I'm sure he won't spy on Republicans and stuff like that. I mean, there's really no way of knowing, but hey, BUSH DID IT FIRST!
Obama needs NO OVERSIGHT. Trust him. No checks and balances, just trust him like you did Bush. No records, paper trails -- sorry, it's all classified. The congress can't look at what he is doing.
Anyway, BUSH DID IT FIRST, and JMK approved. Obama can spy on any American he likes and doesn't have to tell anyone what he is doing. Obama can decide any American is an enemy combatant and have them kidnapped and detained for life.
Hey, don't worry about the potential for abuse. Remember, Bush did it first, and you loved it!
Posted by: Anonymous | January 31, 2009 11:25 PM
"Obama can spy on any American he likes and doesn't have to tell anyone what he is doing." (Barely Hanging)
There's NO SUCH power.
Bush never allowed the NSA to "spy on Americans," at all.
The FISA laws (since 1979) have allowed WARRANTLESS tracking of calls/e-mails FROM "suspect foreign portals" INTO the U.S.
The Bush administration allowed calls/e-mails FROM the U.S. TO "suspect foreign portals" to be tracked without warrant, as well.
There has been NO (absolutely NONE) tracking of DOMESTIC calls/e-mails...and there won't be.
Besides, Rahma Emanuel's top 10 political enemies includes the likes of Chris Dodd, Barney Frank...that list has seven Liberal Democrats (NO Bluedogs) and three Republicans on it.
Posted by: JMK | February 1, 2009 10:31 AM